Spring of 2017 & Dobeck Performance

Discussion in 'Indian Motorcycle General Discussion' started by Ghost, Nov 28, 2016.

  1. Ghost

    Ghost Silver Member
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    I can hardly wait for spring and winter isn't even here yet. I'll be installing a Dobeck EJK of some kind next spring and then putting it on their Axis Dyno. I was their TS111 test bike with my Chieftain earlier this year. Next year we'll do some more testing, this time with my Dark Horse. We're hoping either Andrews or Woods will have tested cams by then. Currently I have Freedom Performance True Duals with Shark Tail Tips and the Indian AC. My plans are for a sneaky hot rod machine. :D:D
     
  2. Baldhead_J

    Baldhead_J Gold Member
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    I'm curious, why go with Dobeck now that the PCV is out and you can flash your ECU with maps from FuelMoto (or build your own) whenever you like and not strap that thing to the bike?
    I'm a little ways away from tuner-time, but it's coming, so I'm gathering data.
     
  3. thumper

    thumper Gold Member
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    New to all the computer shit and have a question.

    If I ever get around to installing my Dobeck AFR + won't that do away with the need to have to "flash" at all? Just to profess my ignorance, I don't even know what the hell a flash is.
     
  4. Ghost

    Ghost Silver Member
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    If your bike is stock or Stage one, the so called flash isn't required once you install the Dobeck. Simply put, Flashes are upgrades to your bikes ECU settings for proper fueling at various points in the power band. However, when it comes to Stage 2 with the cams, Dobeck recommends having the flash done. If for any reason something goes wrong or you need to get your bike back to a stock configuration, you can disconnect the EJK and your good to go.
     
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  5. thumper

    thumper Gold Member
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    Please excuse my ignorance. I have the stage 2 but the AFR + lets you make changes to the fuel/air ratio on the fly by use of a bar mounted controller. It has a gauge that shows in real time what is happening as you make the changes. Shouldn't that do away with the need to do a flash?
     
  6. thumper

    thumper Gold Member
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    I guess the best thing for me to do is call Dobeck. I've been meaning to anyway so I can ask if they have started using the correct size O2 sensors for our bikes yet. I really would prefer to not modify my headers if I don't need to.
     
    #6 thumper, Nov 29, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2016
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  7. Ghost

    Ghost Silver Member
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    Dillon is there, give him a call.
     
  8. thumper

    thumper Gold Member
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    Okay. Appreciate it. :)
     
  9. Baldhead_J

    Baldhead_J Gold Member
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    TL;DR My bottom line is that the entire process is controlled by the ECM/ECU. The control has limits imposed by flashable firmware. The Dobeck/Power Commander/FuelPak all hijack the signals from the o2 sensor and and send a false signal to the ECM to make it adjust, or optimize, engine performance within the allowed limits.
    ******************************************************************************************************

    Long version follows and I caveat it with, "The expressed opinion below is based on my understanding of the diagrams and descriptions I've read over the years and is fully susceptible to being wrong. That happens- not often, but it does happen.):

    Dobeck "lies" to the ECU/ECM. You shouldn't need to flash it (assuming that the O2 sensors are connected to the Dobeck and the Dobeck is forwarding a massaged signal). I'll never really understand how Power Commanders and Dobeck's and FuelPaks "really" work. As I understand it, modern ECUI/ECMs have a range of values that are reprogrammed into their firmware that allow for adaptation to variance in atmospherics and temperature. To adjust beyond that you MUST alter the limits in the firmware (i.e. provide new firmware logic or "flash")
    That's exactly why the Harley Davidson Race Tuner is no longer for sale. HDMC was seen as intentionally providing a company endorsed EPA regulation defeat device and so their new tuner only adjusts the tuning "window" (I called it a "range of values" above) to levels that keep emissions under the EPA limits. So the effect is, you can only dump so much fuel in the heads over so much time whereas before you could dump as much in as your timing would allow you to burn off.
     
  10. Phoenix Chief

    Phoenix Chief Member
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    I believe that the Dobeck and Power Commander operate in different ways. The Dobeck bypasses the O2 sensors and works directly on the fuel injectors to increase the amount of fuel that they deliver.The O2 sensors are disconnected and bypasses are installed to "fool" the ECM into seeing the factory specified fuel mixture. Meanwhile, we are adjusting the Dobeck to increase fuel delivery and make our Indian Motorcycles much happier than they were with the lean EPA friendly settings.
     
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  11. thumper

    thumper Gold Member
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    I called them this morning and that is what they told me.
     
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  12. Ghost

    Ghost Silver Member
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    That's exactly right. :D
     
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  13. Roll On

    Roll On Bronze Member
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    After finding out myself, that the ECM to my old h-d, was a bad.
    After finding a company "Thunder Max" to which you can use ones own laptop computer to change its parameters for its a broadband ECM and not a narrowband ECM like h-d.

    I did contact them and asked if they have plans to make them for Indian motorcycles.
    Not at this time, they said.
     
  14. Ghost

    Ghost Silver Member
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    I hear that on a fairly regular basis. Some say they have no plans at all.
     
  15. Roll On

    Roll On Bronze Member
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    Maybe in time they will change their tune.
     
  16. Ghost

    Ghost Silver Member
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    Maybe, maybe not. Some companies are too focused on HD and don't want to branch out. That's ok. What can you really do.
     
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  17. Baldhead_J

    Baldhead_J Gold Member
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    You're probably right, but the net effect is the same, right? You're still just conning the ECU/ECM.
     
  18. CraigB1960

    CraigB1960 Active Member

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    I'm not sure I would use conning....but yes, all you are doing with a "fuel adder" is stretching the Injector's Pulse Width to add additional fuel. If a setting adds no fuel at a certain point, than the IPW is passed through untouched.
     
  19. Baldhead_J

    Baldhead_J Gold Member
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    So...the signal goes from the EJK to the ECM and to then to the fueling system or from the EJK to the injectors, themselves?
     
  20. Drydock

    Drydock Well-Known Member

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    Last year I would have recommended the Dobeck unreservedly, but now I must consider it obsolescent. We no longer need to rewire and add complexity to "Fool/bypass" the ECM to do what we want, we can now reprogram the ECM itself, to do what we want, with the PVCX. I can only hope Dobeck is working on its version, or even a more advanced auto tune unit, but for now you would be better off with the PVCX
     
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